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Artem Bidenko
Deputy Minister of Information Policy of Ukraine

Kiev
February 2017

Author: Lyubomir Dankov

Part 1

Artem Bidenko - Interview for the Bulgarian media. Part 1.

Position battles are lasting too long after signing Minsk Protocol and there’s no end in sight. What is the reason from your point of view?

The key reason of all the conflicts, that are taking part in the territories of the former USSR countries, is rather active, aggressive position of the Russian Federation. It’s called reopolitic, realisation of your interests by creating local conflicts at your neighbours. This way Russia is solving some problems. One of which, rarely talked about, is handling internal problems, exporting internal energy, internal conflicts into other countries. In fact Russian government, Russian authorities are making Russians discuss problems of Ukraine, Baltic states, Azerbaijan, Armenia, all sort of things except economic and social problems of Russia itself. Another point is weakening all the neighbour countries by means of local conflicts.

The Russian government organises conflicts in Transnistria, Moldova, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Ukraine, which take a lot of these countries’ resources. Consequently, they can’t use these resources for development, for reforming, for creating strong armies and strong economic systems, for becoming leaders of the region and potential competitors of Russia itself. Leadership in the region, imposing their politic, their vision of the world has always been a strategy of Russia, they call it “Russian Mir” (Russian World). Consequently the cause of any conflicts in the territories of the Commonwealth of Independent States is the “reopolitic” of Russia. We are to understand that it’s not something special or something new in the world history. As a matter of fact the USA act in approximately the same way to even more countries. Japan used the same strategy before the WW2. So, it’s usual, normal politic that major countries use on the international arena to control the neighbour countries. Russia wants to rule Ukraine, that’s why it has organised the local conflict.

Does Ukrainian government fully accept Minsk Protocol?

Yes, the authorities completely support Minsk Protocol and demand it’s realisation from all the participants. Control over the border, withdraw of the military forces, managing disorder on the seized territories are the priority tasks, then the elections can be organised. What is Russia doing? It plays around with meanings. It chooses other paragraphs of Minsk Protocol and says “No, no. Let’s hold the elections and then we’ll control the border”. Of course, there is no logic in this, because it’s impossible to hold elections on the uncontrolled territory. Even OSCE Mission (Organisation for security and cooperation in Europe is the world’s largest security oriented organisation) can’t get into some of the localities on the seized by terrorists territories. How can we speak about organising elections, how will we tabulate the voices, who will do this? That’s why Russia deliberately plays around with meanings, changes the order of the paragraphs and says that the voting is the only thing required. Everything else doesn’t make any sense – why to withdraw tanks, BM-21 Grad (the BM-21 “Grad” is 122 mm multiple rocket launcher – editor)? Let them stay. Why to withdraw Russian Special forces (military units trained to conduct special operations - editor) – let’s they also vote on these elections. This is a perfect manipulation.

OK. Is there a willingness of the other side to administratively reunite with Ukraine? In fact, it’s one of the biggest problems of the conflict. Unlike to many other local conflicts, in the East for example, there are no principal differences between people who live in the uncontrolled territory and the other Ukrainians. They are also Ukrainians, they have the same families, the same religion, they speak the same language. There is no difference at all. It’s not Christians against Muslims, Catholics against Orthodox, poor against rich, it’s not industrial North against agricultural as it’s in Italy. Nothing like this, they are the same people. People who live in Donetsk and People who live in Zaporizhia are completely the same.

 

Artem Bidenko
Deputy Minister of Information Policy of Ukraine

Kiev
February 2017

Author: Lyubomir Dankov

Part 2

Artem Bidenko - Interview for the Bulgarian media. Part 2.

There are no real reasons why one people hate others. These reasons are imposed by Russian propaganda and by fictions that fascist junta will punish, kill, slaughter, make everyone work in the mines… Obviously, people who live in Dnepropetrovsk, Charkiv or Zaporizhia don’t work in mines, they speak Russian and they continue to earn money. So, anything hasn’t changed in Ukraine, except that people who inhabit two percent of Ukrainian territories where told, that they would have problems if they stay with Ukraine and these people believe it because they are constantly brainwashed by TV.

Information broadcasted on the internet and TV on the seized territories was monitored and it turned out that 80% of the information is either lie or manipulation. So, it’s a total deception that there is a chaos in Ukraine, that those who speak Russian are killed here and so on. It isn’t the truth. Consequently, there is a huge important task in front of us, we have to provide information to these people that they are the same Ukrainians as we are, that no one is going to haunt them, they didn’t kill, they are not killers. National reconciliation is the key task at the moment. It’s necessary to find something that will help people understand: “Obviously, we are the same people, we cross the border, get into Kramatorsk and the same Ukrainians live there. Kramatorsk and Gorlovka are the same people, it’s just that Kramatorsk is under the Ukrainian authority, and Gorlovka is under the rule of terrorists”. That’s why Ukrainian government implement reforms and seek channels for communication with these people, so they will be able to believe that nothing bad will happen to them if status quo and territorial integrity are restored.

In fact, the situation is really absurd, and to make it clear I’ll give you an example. It’s as if Nesebar was conditionally walled off and Bulgarians weren’t allowed to the other side of the wall, and the people behind the wall were brainwashed by TV that they are not real Bulgarians, but some other white Bulgarians who are close to the Russian nation, who are close to the “Russian world” and they had to obey Russia only, they have to separate from Bulgaria. In half a year these people will start to believe that the life in Bulgaria is bad, that people are being killed there, that the socialistic government that have recently come to power force people to join kolkhoz and at the same time everyone in Russia waits for them and carries about them. It will be a reason for a war with Nesebar. It’s completely absurd. But it’s what is going on in Ukraine. Some “little green men” have come, closed the border, grasped enterprises, seized cities and said: “Ukraine wants to kill you, you have to obey us”. And these people believe it because TV is a very strong tool for influence. Moreover, we understand that they are not Professors of Economics, they are ordinary people, miners who believe everything that they hear from TV.

Is Ukraine ready to accept Donbass by agreement? Yes, Ukraine is ready to accept Donbass, Donbass is Ukrainian territory. The people who committed the crime against humanity must be punished, because they are guilty in muss murder, in murders in general, in violence. Whatever country you take, doesn’t matter where it is, if you kill someone, you are to answer for the crime under criminal articles of the Code. There are laws that prescribe imprisonment for the one who is guilty in killing even in the most anarchic country, even in Somali. The same rule applies for the inhabitants of the uncontrolled territories. The gunmen, the people who killed, who broke commandments, who broke the law aren’t human. They must be punished. All the other Ukrainians will return and we’ll learn how to live together.

The process of recovery, of harmonisation of relationship with people from those territories will be difficult, because there are too much mistrust. We will be afraid that those people will bring a grenade and will detonate it in front of Verkhovna Rada (Parliament of Ukraine), and those people will be afraid that we’ll arrest them and send to rot in jail. Of course, it’ll be necessary to conduct a dialogue, to speak, to explain how Ukraine will develop, what is Ukraine, who are Ukrainians, where shall we go together and reconciliation is the key word that should exist in Ukraine, starting from the realisation of Minsk Protocol.

Do you think that Russia wants to annex Donbass? Russia doesn’t want to annex Donbass. If it wanted, it would have annexed it already as it was done to Crimea. The Russian economy doesn’t need one more depressed region. They experimented with Crimea and it was enough for Russian economic. But there is a different situation in Crimea, here (in Donbass) they were creating Somali. They didn’t have a task to annex, to do right to people. They had a task to make bad things happen to Ukraine, not good things happen to Donetsk and Luhansk regions. A little Somali was created in the East of Ukraine, Russia provides arms, experiments with new weapon, the same way as it was in Syria. And it has a great result – Military industrial complex is growing, Russians see that we are fighting, everything is OK: Russia is a great country and Ukraine is weak, Ukraine can’t move anywhere while there’s a conflict.

The role of international organisations since the beginning of the conflict is positive and proper. These organisations help us to check, to monitor what is happening on the territory and are our mouthpiece on the world stage, because Ukraine states the crimes that are happening there.

There is no question about new Protocols, new agreement. The question is about a new pattern of development for Ukraine. Such pattern hasn’t been created yet, because the conflict is long lasting and we can’t see any ending in the nearest year or two. Only if Putin dies, but I don’t really know… That’s why we are working out such patterns now. Program for restoration of Donbass has been adopted by Ministry of temporary territories, we are writing our own strategy for information integration of Donbass these documents will create the code, the pattern of coexistence and restoration. But right now there is no pattern of the kind. We are studying the experience of other countries, we are studying what is going on. It’s necessary to understand that these Russian wars are unique, because most countries used such wars for colonisation.

They would occupy territories to colonize them, to become richer and stronger, to move forward, to receive resources. They were always wars for resources. And weakening of a neighbour was also through resources. Hitler would annex Sudety to make Germany stronger and at the same time to weak Czechia. Russia isn’t becoming stronger. It only weakens. It doesn’t have enough resources to improve life in a region – it can’t put Ural in order. Chinese people build plants and create fertile ground in Trans-Ural and Trans-Baykal regions because Russia can’t do it. Russia can’t do it neither in Transnistria no in Abkhazia. They abandon the regions. They annex territories and instead of turning them into blooming gardens, as Great Britain did in India, Russia destroys the territories, turns it into a landfill. It’s a very unique story, because people degrade on those territories, they don’t improve their education, there are no libraries, schools aren’t being built there, so these people will need our support. We’ll have to build schools, kindergartens, infrastructure that will allow the people to develop. The world is changing: we have Internet, Wi-Fi, 3G, Elon Musk is launching satellites while DPR and LPR organise balls with shoulder boards and shashkas (shashka is a special kind of sabre – translator). But it’s going back. That’s why it’s going to be a long complicated process, like the process of reuniting of GDR and FRG. Germans have rather hard feelings towards it even now. And you can see it even looking on the houses, when you come to the (former – editor) GDR everything is a bit different, more grey… like the USSR. Why should I explain, you’ve lived in the USSR, close to the USSR in Warsaw.

As for material compensation, it is provided. Ukrainian authorities do their best to provide some compensation to those who suffer from shelling, from violations of their rights. Of course, these money and resources can’t be compared to the resources of the European Union but Ukraine is trying to do at least something.

I’m optimistic. I see Ukraine as a strong united country in the future. Probably Ukraine won’t be a space-faring nation, it won’t put its missiles in Space as even Pakistan does nowadays, but it’ll be a country that will be able to create social elevators and will help people to develop. Ukraine as a strong country is an area that we have and it’s also a sense of freedom. Even if we consider the recent history, our two Euromaidans, they were caused by limiting people’s freedom and people protested against it. These weren’t revolutions for rights, against Yanulovych or anything. People stood for freedom, so that no one could prevent us from doing what we want. Approximately like it was in France. And such freedom will necessarily result in turning Ukraine into economically strong, really independent country, equal to one of 60-70 countries of the European Union, Four Asian Tigers who will set the international agenda. But it won’t be possible earlier than in 20-30 years because a) we are forced to be at war instead of thinking about normal development and b) the role of our state apparatus that we’ve inherited from the USSR and that prevents business and society development is still very strong. We are rather slowly winning back our right to do what we want from the state apparatus. As soon as it happens, when there is at least relative parity between civil society and open authority, Ukraine will start to develop quickly.

Military bases and internal politic wouldn’t have led to the conflict. There wouldn’t have been a war because of the internal conflicts which exist in any country. There is North and South, an industrial part and an agricultural part, young and old elites always have conflicts but these conflicts don’t lead to wars. They may lead to mass-meetings, even to revolutions as it happened in France, but war of such nature can be caused exceptionally by neighbours’ aggression, that is proved by historical experience of France. There always were a lot of revolutions, but real wars would happen when Germany comes to annex one part of the country. Wars before Napoleon’s rule, Bismarck’s wars, the war with Hitler of course, all these were caused by other countries. As long as they petrol-bomb cars – this is an exclusively internal conflict.

We should understand that Russia blitzkrieged in Ukraine. Blitzkrieg was in two parts. First of all there was a long-lasting process of preparations. The closer to the East, the stronger brainwashed the people are. They were told that Ukraine doesn’t exist, that there is no Ukrainian language. That Banderivtsi (Banderivtsi is a generalised term for Ukrainian Nationalists – editor) would come and slaughter everyone, and so on. Obviously, the closer to the East people lived, the stronger they believed it. The second part is blitzkrieg itself. Russia deployed troops, organised political officers who started to work with the people in the field and told them that they had to protest because otherwise something really bad would happen. It lasted for a month or two. At that moment Ukraine was going through a very difficult period of restoration of Government, because all politics, Yanukovych, Zacharchenko, Kleimenko, Arbuzov had run away. Those who stayed didn’t understand how to work and time was needed to rebuild everything. When the time passed, Ukraine re-established control over the Army and the border. Ukraine organised its own military forces and stopped the aggression at once. That’s why they managed to seize only a part of Donetsk and Luhansk regions, but they couldn’t move further. All their fictions were fabricated, all the information was made up. When our people, our soldiers were coming and civilians saw that everything was OK, that the soldiers brought food, restore electricity, water and everything was fine, and the shooting is in Donetsk, these people didn’t want any referendums. They were satisfied with everything. Ukraine is an independent strong country. There is no need in fairy tales. So it was only a matter of time. If Ukraine had controlled its territory, of course there wouldn’t have been any referendums, we wouldn’t have lost even Crimea. So Russia took advantage of the temporary weakness. They pushed us and cut off our hand while we were lying down. But we stood up and started to fight back.

 

Artem Bidenko
Deputy Minister of Information Policy of Ukraine

Kiev
February 2017

Author: Lyubomir Dankov

Part 3

Artem Bidenko - Interview for the Bulgarian media. Part 3.

Of course, there is a connection between the Euromaidan and the events in Donbass. The connection is that the Euromaidan was used by the Russian Federation and its expert affiliate structures as a testimony of chaos, lack of control, and danger for concrete people. Euromaidan was strongly “inflated” by media. When citizens of Donetsk watched TV – it was mainly Russian first channel, they saw that Kiev was on fire, Kiev was being burned, people were being killed. No one told them that it was happening on 5 square kilometres in the city centre of Kiev from Verchovna Rada to the Maidan (Maidan – from Ukarainian “square”) of independence – the distance that can be walked in ten minutes, and in all the other parts of Kiev it was calm, everything worked. It was just a meeting. Militarised with fire, with weapon, yes, but it’s only a meeting not an urban partisan warfare as we saw in Afganistan or in Syria. This confrontation was very localized. They haven’t seen this because the idea that Euromaidan would extended on the whole country was imposed on them. But it’s physically impossible, because the people were standing without weapon, they went out not to fight, they went for their rights. When police started to shoot at them, people obviously started to shoot back. In France something like this happens every year. Euromaidans of the kind is a national holiday for them. On the Bastile Day 700 automobiles are burnt. And everyone takes it absolutely normal, everyone understands that everything is calm in the suburbs of Paris. Everything that happens in France takes place in some central districts, 12th district and so on. It was different in Ukraine because it was advantageous for the neighbour to show that it was bad. Imagine that Germay on the Bastile Day broadcasts on all the TV channels that Paris is occupied, that French government collapsed and it doesn’t control anything. Of course, those who watch Deutsche Welle and other German channels will believe it, they will think, “Oh, God, we have to escape from France”. But it won’t be the truth, it will be a manipulation. That’s why there is a connection, but this connection exists in people’s heads and on TV only.

Anarchy… I would say that when we didn’t have strong governance Russia took the advantage of the situation and in fact managed to cut out our hand.

As for the mistakes that influenced the escalation of the conflict… No, I think the reasoned and balanced position taken by the president of Ukraine, the Ukrainian politicians – not to respond to provocations, not to react aggressively, to appeal to global audiences, cooperate with UNO to prevent Russia from getting the right to bring troops into Ukraine as it happened in Georgia. Georgia answered aggressively and lost. Ukraine hasn’t lost the war and I’m sure it will win the war.

Yes, we’ve received a prolonged conflict, but we haven’t received something significantly worse that could happen. We saw what it could have been near Ilovaysk, when our troops moved forward and experienced the real strength of the Russian army. We admit that it’s a strong army, Ukraine can’t confront it. That’s why the decisions about the seized territories are completely wise and weighed.

Conflict in Donbass… – it’s Russian’s aggression against Ukraine

Casualties of the Armed Forces of Ukraine have been declared – about 2,000 soldiers were killed, and 10,000 dead in the whole, including civilians. Reported loses can be fined on the websites of Ministry of Defence of Ukraine and of Ministry of Social Policy in Ukraine. I don’t know anything about Bulgarians; probably the Ministry of defence possess the information.

The information about the Malaysian plane was quite open and completely understandable, we are waiting for the decision of the world courts. It’s completely evident for us that BUK missile system (BUK missile system is a self-propelled surface to air missile system, that can engage targets in distance from 30 metres to 18 kilometeres – editor) was brought by the order of the commander-in-chief of the Russian Federation, Vladimir Putin. The system had to shoot the Russian plane down and to make a provocation that would allow them to bring Russian troops into Ukraine. As there is a difference between the hated Americans in Russia and Russians themselves, the difference is in their professionalism. A civilian aircraft was shot down and the whole world understood that Russia is a war criminal and the leaders of Russia have to be judged in The Hague as Hitler and his companions were convicted. Actually, I’d like to identify clearly that Russia is building a fascist regime right now. It doesn’t possess any signs of Nazi or fascist ideology, so there are no special divisions, no racism, but according to the principle of leadership, of legitimization of the authorities, according to the principle of fulfilment of the interests of the country it’s either a fascist or a Nazi regime, that supress any dissidence beginning with liberal one; there is no racism only. They cut out everything else – LGBT, liberals… they have extreme right-wing ideology, it’s obvious. And they are ready for everything in order to show the world what a strong state they are. Hitler did the same helping to fulfil the Germans’ complex that was left after the WW1. “We are a great nation, we are to show the whole world that we are a great country” – that is what Russia doing nowadays.